tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post6841459379103655117..comments2023-10-19T04:51:53.516-05:00Comments on The Legal Dollar: Paying for Law School 1: How Much Does Law School Really Cost?Managing Partnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-34550939093720722202009-12-20T20:05:20.505-06:002009-12-20T20:05:20.505-06:00Benjamin/1:27 - I can see the confusion with regar...Benjamin/1:27 - I can see the confusion with regard to opportunity cost. You note correctly that the cost of living expenses is already included in the total value of loans that you would have to take out. If the opportunity cost were equal to that number, then you would be right that the opportunity cost is already included in the calculation.<br /><br />However, take the example of someone making $50/year who goes back to law school. Let's say that his living expenses were $35K/year (and that his living expenses remain constant when he goes to law school), he was saving $15K/year, and that his salary was going up by 4%/year. Well, the total cost to this person to attend law school is not just the law school price tag - even including the cost of living. This person is also missing out on the $15K/year that he was saving, as well as the 4%/year salary increases. <br /><br />So the total cost (or loss) to him personally of attending law school is the total cost that we identified above, plus the lost salary income, plus the lost salary increases.<br /><br />I did not include thses costs because they are typically highly variable with a person's specific situation. However, they are real costs that a person should consider in addition to the law school "price tag" above.Managing Partnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-66830220859772544142009-12-20T01:02:31.378-06:002009-12-20T01:02:31.378-06:00This is 1:27 again. Wouldn't we have to pay...This is 1:27 again. Wouldn't we have to pay for living expenses anyway? So you can't really count this as cost (unless it is impliedly in the opportunity cost). <br /><br />I still agree with you that it isn't nearly worth the cost. Moving costs, books (including commercial outlines/flashcards/etc), and the increased living costs in San Francisco really hurt.<br /><br />Also can't forget about the bar preparation courses if the student doesn't land a big firm that will pay for it. That's another 3k minimum.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09740443995567172707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-34701474750943657282009-12-18T16:24:15.944-06:002009-12-18T16:24:15.944-06:001:27 - You are right, I left out the opportunity c...1:27 - You are right, I left out the opportunity cost - and the oppportunity cost can be very large. However, it is highly variable and I don't have any solid data to model it. The common thought is that you go to law school and then work for a few years and that eventually you will be in a better financial position by going to law school. This is absolutely untrue in many cases. I also wonder just how many years it takes to reach the break-even point in even the agerage scenario. My gut feel is at least 10 years.Managing Partnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-2391070082434669982009-12-18T01:27:20.956-06:002009-12-18T01:27:20.956-06:00This site is absolutely fantastic - I wish I had t...This site is absolutely fantastic - I wish I had this 4 years ago before going to law school.<br /><br />Once thing you're forgetting is opportunity cost. The student is foregoing the opportunity to make money had he not gone to law school. I had a lot of friends at my law school who left their 50k jobs to go to law school. Even after taxes, the additional cost was $100k+Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-68995633677861460332009-10-11T09:33:39.818-05:002009-10-11T09:33:39.818-05:00These numbers are mind boggling.
I still rememb...These numbers are mind boggling. <br /><br />I still remember the day years ago when I fully committed to attending my state law school. It was the day I received my suggested loan package from a higher ranked private school with 40k+ in loans for 1L year. 65k+ is utterly crazy in this market. <br /><br />A high percentage of students entering law school now are 1) never going to be able to pay their loans off, or 2) have their ability to raise a family/buy a home crippled for decades. <br /><br />This talk about a lost generation isn't hyperbole.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-10327745807230125182009-10-08T15:58:42.076-05:002009-10-08T15:58:42.076-05:002:43 - Good comment. With regard to opening more ...2:43 - Good comment. With regard to opening more law schools, I think that the ABA feels that it would be vulnerable to anti-trust prosecution if it attempted to limit the number of law schools or law students at a particular school. From what I can see from an initial analysis, it seems like their fear of exposure has a certain degree of legitimacy. However, they could approach the Justice Department and try to get a no-sue committment from them but, the Justice Department might not want to get involved. <br /><br />One thing that could be done is that congress could create a statutory exemption for law school regulation, but that is a pretty major issue and many law schools would lobby against it.<br /><br />I agree that it seems like we are not allocating our resources as efficiently as possible as a society. Even Scalia can see that some of the best minds may be wasted on law - http://abovethelaw.com/2009/10/justice_antonin_scalia_says_th.phpManaging Partnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-34947484318386013962009-10-08T14:43:52.338-05:002009-10-08T14:43:52.338-05:00MP:
This about more than just naive and deluded f...MP:<br /><br />This about more than just naive and deluded future and current law students. The distortions in the legal education industry are having, and will continue to have, a largely negative effect on the ability of those they ensnare to lead productive lives. And it's not just the students who suffer; society as a whole suffers when you have improper distributions of resources. More bluntly, the incredible amounts of loans these people are taking/carrying will have a negative effect on our more productive members of society and our government. <br /><br />I don't think it's incorrect to say that what's is happening and continues to happen in the legal education industry is a true market failure and one the cries out for government intervention. Why in hell anyone is allowed to open more law schools in this country is beyond all rational thought.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-85469791871095863852009-10-08T14:37:16.512-05:002009-10-08T14:37:16.512-05:0012:37 - Yep, I agree that prospective students sho...12:37 - Yep, I agree that prospective students should be more aware that law school's marketing materials are really a sales pitch. However, with regard to marketing in other fields, I actually see MORE marketing with regard to the MBA - and for even LESS value. My perception is that the hyper-marketing started with the MBA and has now spread to the law degree.Managing Partnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-25231493491293558252009-10-08T14:31:30.329-05:002009-10-08T14:31:30.329-05:0012:16 - Wow, checking out the website comments, th...12:16 - Wow, checking out the website comments, they certainly do have an emotional investment. They need to realize that just wanting something to be a certain way does not make it that way in reality.Managing Partnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-64740595809777001702009-10-08T12:37:17.247-05:002009-10-08T12:37:17.247-05:00I love how you call it as "sales pitch" ...I love how you call it as "sales pitch" as if a prospective lawstudent is buying a car and not deciding on a career for the rest of their lives. Maybe that's the problem. These kids are not realizing that law school is a "sales pitch" and its for a product that they can't return in 3 days after buyer's remorse. They will be saddled with huge debt for a good chunk of their lives, if not all.<br /><br />One's life career should not be the subject of a "sales pitch." You don't see medical schools or other graduate programs advertising nearly as much as you do law schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-15754259250197046132009-10-08T12:16:54.102-05:002009-10-08T12:16:54.102-05:00MP:
I don't think it will do any good. Have y...MP:<br /><br />I don't think it will do any good. Have you ever read any of what's being posted over at Top Law Schools? It's both hilarious and deeply, deeply disturbing. <br /><br />Most of what's there is coming from very unenlightened people. Whenever anyone tries to provide a counter-argument to the wisdom of attending law school, that person is then attacked and devoured like fresh meat surrounded by starving vultures.<br /><br />Here's an example:<br /><br />http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89295<br /><br />There is far worse on that place. Most of the people on that site have such a high emotional investment in their delusions of what law school and the legal profession are about that if you point out simple realities, they pound you with ad hominems and infantile responses until it's no longer worth responding.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-2561074762803177012009-10-08T11:37:26.183-05:002009-10-08T11:37:26.183-05:009:01 - Thanks for the link to the article! I like...9:01 - Thanks for the link to the article! I like the article for it's informativeness! However, I think that law schools have themselves pretty insulated from a fraud allegation and much of the issue is due to unrealistic expectations fueled by media reporting of extremes. Instead of putting a lot of work into going after the law schools, maybe we can just act to publicize the real numbers so that students can hear more than just a sales pitch and have greater clarity about what they are getting into.Managing Partnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-33840494540892982322009-10-08T09:01:40.930-05:002009-10-08T09:01:40.930-05:00MP:
Take a lot at this article. Underneath the hy...MP:<br /><br />Take a lot at this article. Underneath the hystrionics is a serious question that isn't being addressed. <br /><br />http://www.examiner.com/x-23652-Chicago-Criminal-Justice-Examiner~y2009m9d18-Frauds-and-swindles-The-law-school-cartelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-4814961619384054812009-10-07T22:01:11.730-05:002009-10-07T22:01:11.730-05:005:23 and 7:38 - My main purpose is just to be sure...5:23 and 7:38 - My main purpose is just to be sure that potential law students have the facts in an unvarnished way (maybe a little on the less-rosey side to counter the wildly optimistic message that they get from other sources.) If a certain student makes the decision to go to law school, then more power to them. That being said, to me it does appear that the supply and demand is out of balance with certain areas of practice - especially in this economy. Also, the reflexive decision to go to law school that it seems a lot of students are making does really needs to be evaluated in light of their personal situations.Managing Partnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-46978636545575866302009-10-07T19:38:12.923-05:002009-10-07T19:38:12.923-05:00I wouldn't interpret any of this to discourage...I wouldn't interpret any of this to discourage my children from going to law school. I think the author's point is to know what you are getting into. <br /><br /> I would pick law over science any day of the week.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-84670893722532956412009-10-07T17:23:32.952-05:002009-10-07T17:23:32.952-05:00Seriously, this is important information that is n...Seriously, this is important information that is not being provided to college students or their parents (who really should have this information when their kids are in high school and can be encouraged to seek out better college degrees, like science). Thanks for the wake up call. Certainly going to do my part to discourage my kids from going to law school (particularly with the over saturation in the market these days).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-77785295445232451772009-10-07T17:06:34.801-05:002009-10-07T17:06:34.801-05:00Sorry I didn't get the word out sooner, but it...Sorry I didn't get the word out sooner, but it's really only been the last few years that law school tuitions have really gotten ridiculous - especially in light of the decrease in high paying jobs.<br /><br />Best of luck!Managing Partnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-872929689885092082009-10-07T17:04:27.163-05:002009-10-07T17:04:27.163-05:00Wow. I wish I had read this before I graduated wit...Wow. I wish I had read this before I graduated with over $100K in student debt. <br /><br />Where were you in 2004??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com