tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post2956915088179917669..comments2023-10-19T04:51:53.516-05:00Comments on The Legal Dollar: Comparing Hiring Odds Now And In The 1990s RecessionManaging Partnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-34512384435529890372010-04-29T05:09:41.491-05:002010-04-29T05:09:41.491-05:00Thanks for sharing this information on 1990 recess...Thanks for sharing this information on 1990 recession it will really help in feature analysis.mutual funds navhttp://www.reliancemutual.com/NAV/NAV.aspxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-78815294749730924712010-01-03T18:24:02.994-06:002010-01-03T18:24:02.994-06:00Hi Sabril,
Seems like we agree that one is in a b...Hi Sabril, <br />Seems like we agree that one is in a better hiring position having worked for 2 years rather than being unemployed. I will also agree that the chances of an 08 grad landing a biglaw associate position right now are pretty bad - as you mention, the chances might be greater if a sudden lawyer shortage happened, but that does not seem to be on the horizon.Managing Partnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-10572166890510262902010-01-02T07:07:29.211-06:002010-01-02T07:07:29.211-06:00"but has been working part-time at a law firm..."but has been working part-time at a law firm and learning practice skills that I think are valuable as compared to a younger attorney without those "<br /><br />I think that for BIGLAW recruiting, those practice skills are not particularly helpful and might even hurt you. BIGLAW partners know that attorneys who have had a taste of autonomy and responsibility tend to have a lot of problems adapting to life as a BIGLAW associate. Which involves constant micromanagement and an endless stream of nonsense work.<br /><br />BIGLAW has plenty of chiefs . . . the question is how many braves are needed.<br /><br />So what is a member of the "lost generation" to do? I'm not sure. In terms of BIGLAW, the stigma of having been unemployed for 2 years is probably worse than the disadvantage from having worked at a small shop. <br /><br />Still, I would say your chances of working at BIGLAW are pretty bad. Mainly you will have to hope for a severe attorney shortage like there was during the internet boom.sabrilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-14812302105251939282010-01-01T16:26:50.161-06:002010-01-01T16:26:50.161-06:00Hi Coder Emeritus,
Good questions. First, with r...Hi Coder Emeritus, <br />Good questions. First, with regard to the potential increased need for attorneys as the result of federal regulation, I think that we may see some positions being created for attorneys, but I don't think that the total number of positions will be significant compared to the number of attorneys graduating law school. These positions also will NOT likely be going to attorneys without experience.<br /><br />As to your second question, I don't think that the 08s and 09s will be categorically skipped over by all firms. However, I think that there might be a difference in how some firms regard them. You also have to realize that the lateral market is mostly invisible and varies from city to city and with practice area.<br /><br />First question - are the 08s and 09s "laterals"? That is, do they have relevant legal experience that I would use to remove them from the general applicant pool? If so, then they are not going to be competing with the 10s and 11s. Realize that if you are a law firm, if you could have an experienced lateral or a new associate for the same price, then you are most likely going to pick the lateral. They just require less training and make you more money. In this regard, the 08s and 09s are going to be ahead of the 10s and 11s.<br /><br />Keep in mind that a sizable percentage of law firms do not hire associates right out of law school - period. They want some other firm to make the training investment and for the associate to have some track record before they hire. Of course, as their work picks up, they start hiring more laterals away from their initial firms and the initial firms start hiring more law students.<br /><br />Note: If you are an 08 or 09, you really want to do something that you can show on the resume gives you legal experience because you really want to be considered as a lateral rather than an inexperienced associate.<br /><br />However, if the 08 or 09 does NOT have relevant legal experience, then they are in the same pool as the 10s and 11s in terms of experience, but they are "out of phase" with the hiring process. That is, they are really not comparable with 1Ls and 2Ls - they are really comparable with 3Ls. However, those firms that are looking to hire 3Ls usually only look to them after the market for laterals has dried up. That is, if you want someone to start "right now", then you want a lateral - as long as you can get a good one.<br /><br />So, to go to the heart of your question, if I have a hiring decision between an older attorney that missed out on the hiring game as a 2L, but has been working part-time at a law firm and learning practice skills that I think are valuable as compared to a younger attorney without those skills, then (all other things being equal) the older attorney seems like the better bet. Conversely, if the older attorney has done nothing with the law degree for a couple years, then maybe the younger attorney is more aggressive and interested in the practice of law - and the decision probably goes to them. <br /><br />Now that I consider it, I assumed that most of the older attorneys would automatically recognize this and would thus automatically go out and get that experience. However, that may not be all that apparent to them. Thus, to the extent that a large percentage of them walk away from their law degree, you may indeed see some of the "lost generation" effect that you mention.Managing Partnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-18309657999952656112010-01-01T15:30:19.309-06:002010-01-01T15:30:19.309-06:00Hi Managing Partner,
I was wondering what your th...Hi Managing Partner,<br /><br />I was wondering what your thoughts are on two particular issues, not exactly related to lawyer finances.<br /><br />1. Do you think there will be any additional demand for lawyer positions as a result of increased regulations by the federal or state governments in the Healthcare Sector; the Finance sector; and environmental regulations? While I was in law school, I was a part-time clerk doing random things related to Sarbannes-Oxley, and I'm pretty sure my job wouldn't have existed if that particular legislation didn't occur. Do you think there will be any additional demand on the government side to create and/or implement new regulations? Do you think that would also spur the target industries (healthcare, finance, perhaps manufacturing and utilities that pollute) to also have a higher demand for attorneys in order to comply and/or resist the govt regulations and bureaucracies?<br /><br />2. Let's presume that there is some level of increased demand for legal services due to increased regulation. Do you think that the current oversupply of attorneys has any effect or do you think perhaps the slate will be wiped clean? I have a feeling that the slate will be wiped clean and the "legacy" oversupply of attorneys won't really matter. That is, I think that even if hiring picks up, hirers will be looking to pick up attorneys from the new classes and the older classes (let's say class of '08 and '09) will be left as the "lost generation" and basically skipped over. Do you think that is a possibility? I think I've read on one of your other posts that you think the current oversupply will affect future classes in that the older attorneys will compete with the younger attorneys and the younger attorneys will be at the back of the line. Do you think it is at all possible that the reverse could be true and that the older attorneys will be skipped over?<br /><br />Sorry for the super-long post. Have a fantastic 2010!!Coder Emeritusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-23553646811124709482009-12-30T18:29:53.883-06:002009-12-30T18:29:53.883-06:00Hi Nando! I like the quotes you put around "...Hi Nando! I like the quotes you put around "making something of themselves" - I think that you are emphasising that what the law school is selling is the "status" of the law degree rather than a clear tangible financial advantage. Sadly, that is all too common these days. From reading your blog, I think that you might respond to the concept of going to law school to make something of yourself by saying something like - "Oh, it will certainly make something of you - - most likely roadkill!" Unfortunately, you would not be wrong in many situations.<br /><br />I am not familiar with Albany, but the statistics you highlight seem like they may be questionable. They seem to encourage the observer to believe that 94% are hired as attorneys, which we know is not likely. The chart that you reference does not specifically break out full time, part-time, legal vs. non-legal, and number no responding. That is information that an observer really needs to know in order to truly make an informed decision.Managing Partnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-91395809453708513312009-12-30T17:00:56.127-06:002009-12-30T17:00:56.127-06:00MP,
Lemmings don't let the fact that they got...MP,<br /><br />Lemmings don't let the fact that they got a 151 on the LSAT discourage them from attending law school and "making something of themselves." <br /><br />But, you have third tier commodes like Albany claiming 94% employment within 9 months.<br /><br />http://www.albanylaw.edu/media/user/careers/employmentrate.08.jpg<br /><br />And places like Albany are more than happy to let you in, at the oh-so-affordable cost of $38,900 per year.<br /><br />http://www.albanylaw.edu/sub.php?navigation_id=120Nandohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06423524039657355134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-11471924454303984632009-12-30T11:27:15.990-06:002009-12-30T11:27:15.990-06:0011:54 - I certainly agree that there is a tremendo...11:54 - I certainly agree that there is a tremendous herd mentality when it comes to law school - and to undergrad as you note. I think that one other problem is that there is still some belief that schools are acting in part in the best interests of their students - "in loco parentis" used to be how they were expected to act. Conversely, law schools especially seem to have shifted to a more "business" model where students are "sold" and the law school disclaims responsibility for the student's success or failure. Pursuant to your undergrad journalism example, charging students $160K for a degree that makes an average of about $25K to start does not seem like it is in the best interests of the student. If schools are going to rise to their ethical standards - if they are really going to practice what they preach about ethics - then it is time to step up and start acting in loco parentis - in the best interests of the students. Conversely, if the schools would prefer to operate as a business, then maybe it is time to put their advertising claims under the microscope of the FTC's advertising regulations. It is disingenuous of the schools to claim to be acting in the student's best interests while not doing so and to either fail to provide information or provide stilted information.Managing Partnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-58076140907139465032009-12-30T11:12:23.621-06:002009-12-30T11:12:23.621-06:00law is 4 losers - The scenario you describe on you...law is 4 losers - The scenario you describe on your site is chilling, but all too common. I would advise everyone thinking of going to law school to read your site. You might be a little over-negative, but in light of the constant bombardment of over-optimism and misinformation that is provided to potential law students your site provides a valuable balance. I would hope that your site would encourage a potential law student to take a new and fresh look at their desire to go to law school and to do some serious consideration and investigation of their potential career path and whether law is for them.Managing Partnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130017520583425490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-48683720620595610212009-12-29T23:54:30.303-06:002009-12-29T23:54:30.303-06:00interesting expansion on that article.
you just s...interesting expansion on that article. <br />you just see so many of your classmates headed to law school and your the only one not going, just doesn't seem right.<br />i guess it's a type of herd mentality and you are trying to break it because you look out ahead and realize it's a slaughter house. I know a few people that went to NYU and did journalism. They are so screwed, i don't even know how anyone could afford going to NYU for any type of non-engineering jobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3521318064826848712.post-65064848841049213142009-12-29T20:22:35.737-06:002009-12-29T20:22:35.737-06:00Read my blog bigdebtsmalllaw.wordpress.com for mor...Read my blog bigdebtsmalllaw.wordpress.com for more about the current legal landscapelaw is 4 losershttp://bigdebtsmalllaw.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com